Katey Rich: Hello, and welcome to Little Gold Men, the award season podcast from Vanity Fair. Speaker 2: It's such an honor to present this next award... Speaker 3: And here are the nominees... Speaker 4: And the Oscar goes to... Speaker 5: And the Oscar goes to... Speaker 6: And I can't deny the fact that you like me, right now. You like me. Speaker 7: I'm the kind of the world. Speaker 8: There's a mistake. Moonlight, you guys won Best Picture. Katey Rich: I am Katey Rich, and I'm here for today's interview episode with Rebecca Ford. Rebecca Ford: Hi, Katey. Katey Rich: Uh, Rebecca, you and I are going to talk about an interview you did and then pitch in for David, uh, to set up the one that he did. But first let's, uh, talk about your conversation with Zoe Kazan, who is a star of She Said. A movie that I saw and texted you after saying that it had some real working mom shit in it. Rebecca Ford: [laughs] Katey Rich: Um, and I'm assuming that you guys got into that in your conversation. Rebecca Ford: Oh, yeah. I mean, she actually tweeted about it right before the film played at New York Film Fest. Because basically, you know, when she was digging into playing Jodi Kantor, the New York Times reporter, um, you know, she was asking her... because her husband is also a very successful reporter. They have kids. She's like, "How did you do this all?" And Jodi was basically like, "My mom had to help during this time." And turns out, Zoe basically went through the same thing, because her own partner, Paul Dano, was filming Fabelmans at the same time she was filming She Said. And they have a four year old, um, daughter. So they also had to do basically the same thing and have her parents come in and help. So, it was very present in her mind, I think, how you sort of balance career when it's on this level and, um, being a, a mom. Katey Rich: Yeah. I saw that she also tweeted at another film journalist who noticed the stickers on Jodi Kantor's laptop as she's in the office. It's just very obviously what a kid would do. And she said that was a detail she took directly from Jodi. Because Jodi Kantor Megan Twohey who are played by, uh, Zoe and Carey Mulligan in the film, were really involved in this movie. Um, which is not necessarily what happens when real people are being played in the movie. A- and I feel like it adds a lot to the authenticity of what they're going through, as they're, um, you know, reporting the Harvey Weinstein story that changed everything. Rebecca Ford: Yeah, she really, it sounds like, got to sit down with Jodi, and they had a lot in common already. They're both, um, obviously New York based, and, uh, their kids have gone to the same preschool. And- and, but she grilled her like, "What water bottle do you bring to the office? What note- type of notebook do you use?" You know, like really got into those details, and I think you can definitely see that on screen. Katey Rich: Yeah. Um, well let's here your, more of your conversation with Zoe Kazan. But first, let's hear a word from our sponsor. Rebecca Ford: I'm so excited to welcome Zoe Kazan to the podcast today.s he starts at Jodi Kantor in She Said, which will, is currently in theaters. Uh, Zoe, thank you so much for joining us. Zoe Kazan: Thanks for having me. Rebecca Ford: So, I love this film. Obviously, I'm a huge journalism nerd, and I think the way it captures journalism is so great. The way it captures working mothers, and also of course, the way it, you know, tells the story of really reporting out the Harvey Weinstein story. So tell me how the script first came to you, and- and what you thought of it when you were reading it. Zoe Kazan: Yeah. Um, so Carey Mulligan, who plays the other reporter, and I have been friends for 14 years. And we have a really close mutual friend who, uh, in the Spring of 2021 was like, "Oh, Carey's gonna do this movie about the reporters who, who broke the Weinstein story." And I was so excited for her. I felt like it was such a perfect fit, and I never thought like, "Oh, there was a, a second reporter." [laughs] I never thought like, I should be asking someone about that. Um, and then my agents called me and were like, "You have a meeting with Maria Schrader about, about this movie." Um, I very quickly read the book, which kind of blew me away. Like, I think [laughs] even though I have friends who are journalists... I think I had some sort of like naïve, uh, vision, that as soon as an investigative journalist had the truth, they could publish it. Like [laughs]... and the amount of, um, verification and evidence that they need, needed, in order to be able to publish this in the Times to meet the journalistic standards of the Times. It kind of blew my mind. I mean, they knew so much before they could publish. Rebecca Ford: Yeah, and- and other reporters had really tried to break this story, but it, it was just so difficult, which is what we can see in the film. Zoe Kazan: Yeah. Rebecca Ford: Or you can read in the book. And, um, I'm curious, you know, because you are also a screenwriter... when you're reading a script, what are you, what makes you know it's- it's a good script? Zoe Kazan: Well, this script, Re- Rebecca Lenkiewicz, I think, did an incredible job adapting the book. You know, Jodi and Megan's book, she said, is full of incredible detail about their reporting. But it's not really about them, you know? I don't think that they, um, felt that comfortable positing themselves as the subjects of a piece. But Rebecca interviewed them, and- and really brought out so much about their personal lives, which is in the film. And to me, it's, it's such a full portrait, like you said of- of what it is to be a working mother. And the kind of like, portrait womanhood as a whole. Like, you- you- you see it with the sources, and you see it with, with Jodi and Megan. You know, there's just so much pace to it too, like Carey always says, like [laughs], um, it's like a marker of how good the writing is, that it feels like a thriller. Even though we know what, what happens. [laughs] We know that they publish the story, and we know everything that came, came after they published it. Um, I don't know, I just think she did a sensational job. Rebecca Ford: Yeah. And so, tell me, once you had signed on, what did you need from Jodi to play this role? You know, how much time did you ask of her, and what were you sort of looking to understand about her? Zoe Kazan: Jodi and Megan were incredibly generous with Carey and I, you know, sort of opening up their lives, and making themselves, I think, really vulnerable to us. Um, I can't imagine having someone [laughs] play me, uh, with the, the uncanniness of that feeling. Um, especially when you're, like I said, you know, constitutionally and in terms your job, not used to putting yourself in the, in the center of a story. Jodi and I met for dinner in Brooklyn [laughs], and immediately I was like, "Oh, this is a person I could know in my life, you know, already." She just seemed really familiar to me. We have, we have a lot of people in common. Our kids went to the same preschool, like, um... but you know, Carey and I had decided very early on, we weren't going to try to do an imitation of these people. That that would be distracting from the honesty of the story. And, um, that we wanted to sort of just try to capture their essence. Watching Jodi listen was a huge part of my preparation. Getting a sense of how she is across a table. And then I asked her just a bunch of nosy questions like, you know, "What do you bring to an interview? Are you using a recording device? Are you using a notebook? Um, how do you prepare? [laughs] What kind of water bottle do you bring to work?" Rebecca Ford: [laughs] Zoe Kazan: Um, "Where do you buy your shoes? Who puts dinner on the table? How does that happen? Who helps you with childcare?" Rebecca Ford: Yeah. Yeah, and, and as you mentioned, you know, the, the addition of their life balancing, sort of being a work- a mom and a journalist I think, is definitely part of the story that struck me, obviously as a mom as well. But, um, it's something that you had also tweeted about, sort of finding that balance while you were shooting this. And, and I'm curious how that played into performing this role while you also were sort of having to figure out that balance at the same time. Zoe Kazan: Yeah. You know, I, I was cast in She Said a few weeks after Paul was cast in the Fabelmans, and they shot concurrently. He was shooting, um, the Fabelmans on the west coast, while I was filming in New York. And we didn't... like, we started filming on the same day. [laughs] And- Rebecca Ford: [laughs] Zoe Kazan: ... I didn't really know how we were going to do that. It seemed like an impossible, um, lift. Uh, we have an incredible nanny, but she's in grad school and can't like, you know, be with my kid all the time. [laughs] Um, nor did we want that. And my, my parents really pitched in. They really, um, they moved across the country. They moved in with us for, for months and- and made it possible. There's no minute that I took that for granted or any of the childcare that we have. I think, um, you know, when I asked Jodi how... it's not in the movie, but the same time that they were breaking the story, Ron, her husband, was breaking a, a really important story and had to travel for that story as well. And I was like, "How did you do it?" And she said, you know, "My mom and dad really pitched in." And it made me laugh, because we were experiencing such similar things, such parallel things. Um, I don't know. For me it's like, Carey and I re-watched All the Presidents Men in preparation for this film... and also just for fun. Rebecca Ford: [laughs] Zoe Kazan: And, um, you know, you, the most you need to see of their personal lives in there is just like, a messy bachelor apartment in the background. Like, they could just concentrate solely on the story. And I feel like it's, it's like an, it's like a shadow story. It's like the untold part of all of our life. E- especially because, I think the lives of women in, in the middle of their life, aren't usually put on screen. We get so many coming of age stories, so many teenage girls, and, and girls in their early 20s. And it was so meaningful to me to get to put that on screen. Rebecca Ford: Yeah. And as you mentioned, you know, you and Carey have known each other for a long time. But was there anything the two of you sort of had to work on or delve into for this dynamic between these two characters that felt different or, or new? Zoe Kazan: Yeah, I mean, you know, we know each other so well, and these two women, Jodi and Megan, were really only getting to know each other over the course of this. Their relationship was growing over, over this investigation. They- they didn't know each other at all when they started working together on this. They had, um, you know, been colleagues, but ha- had barely spoken to each other. I think w- we both felt like, a kind of like [laughs]... oh, we have to really calibrate, you know, how much we're using the same brain in these scenes. And- and sort of tell that journey. But it was incredibly useful to me to have someone I knew so well, even playing scenes where we weren't supposed to know each other that well. It felt like, oh, I have this like, truth barometer here. Um, she won't let me get away with any, any, um, you know, "acting." Rebecca Ford: [laughs] And was there a certain scene that f- felt maybe more difficult to navigate the emotions or the tone for? I think there are so many that are so powerful with your character. You know, when she's talking to that woman's husband on the lawn, I found that one to be really striking. Or, you know, when she get the call, um, finally that someone is going to go on the record. So how would you sort of approach scenes that sort of had that emotional weight to them? Zoe Kazan: You know, those two scenes that you brought up were actually, I think in some ways easier for me. Because those are scenes where Jodi is allowing like, there are cracks showing. And that feels like, there's more of herself present in a way in those moments. I think it was harder for me to prepare for the scenes where she's speaking to the survivors, especially because there are so many of those conversations that happen in the film. And it really felt like, you know, for Jodi, each of these sources was incredibly different and required incredibly different preparation. And they all meant something different to the investigation. When you're filming scene after scene like that, they can start to all feel the same. And so, really working to make sure that, that I was really present in every scene. And that, you know, the quality of my listening matched what hers would have been. You know, you can't, you can't express too much emotion. You don't want to step on the toes of your source. You want to let them talk. You know, it was all in the script, but there's a temptation to start to tune something out. Or, um, especially because the subject matter is so weighty. Rebecca Ford: And we talked about this a little bit before, but how did you sort of navigate the weight of this story as you were shooting, or as you were preparing? Because it is, you know, because you know this is about real women and real survivors. How did you carry that with you? Zoe Kazan: First of all, we had so many of the survivors contributing to the film in one way or another. Either acting in it or consulting on it, and that felt like a blessing. Like, it gave me confidence that we were doing things the- the, the right way. Doing right by them to the best of our ability. Um, we had a therapist on call, uh, that the producers had arranged. I spoke with her a few times. Um, and mostly to help me prepare to speak, to be in a scene with an actual survivor. So that I would be able to provide, uh, as much support as possible in those situations. And then, you know, obviously just having the bal- [laughs]... you know, it's like one of the places where workplace balance actually helps you out. Like, having the balance of going home and being with my kid. And you know, having her freak out, 'cause she wants goldfish and not, you know, cheddar goldfish or whatever. [laughs] Cheddar bunnies, like, you know, whatever the thing is. Like, it felt to me like, that was really grounding and helped me put something away, and not take it home with me so much. Rebecca Ford: Yeah. And, and Paul was recently also on this podcast, and obviously the two of you are sort of going through the release of films at the same time, which is, sounds like it's pretty unusual for your timing. And how do you sort of protect your family life during, when such a busy time like that? Along with a new addition, it sounds like. [laughs] So... that's a lot at once. Zoe Kazan: Yeah, yeah, we have a, we have a four week old. Um... Rebecca Ford: Congratulations. Zoe Kazan: It is a lot at once. We did not plan this timing. Rebecca Ford: [laughs] Zoe Kazan: Um, sometimes things just happen. Um, you know, well first of all, my parents are here again with us making this possible. Again. You know, my, I mean, I just, I have to say like... you know, when I was like 32 maybe and starting to think about like, when am I going to be able to have a family? I was talking with my mom about it, and I was like, "I just find it really daunting. Like, I don't know how this is ever gonna be possible for me." And, um, our lives are so strange. You know, we won't know what work is coming, and then two weeks later, you're like, on a plane somewhere. And ho- how do you do that as a parent? And my mom, who did not have a parent who was flying across the country to help her be a working mother, promised me that she would help me. And I think I thought she was just trying to get a grandchild out of me. Um... Rebecca Ford: [laughs] Zoe Kazan: [laughs] Rebecca Ford: She's like, "I'll do whatever it takes." [laughs] Zoe Kazan: Exactly. But she's really like, held that promise. And I truly don't think we'd be able to do what we're doing right now without them. It's really strange. It's really wonderful. It's like a, you know, a plenitude of blessings over here. And at the same time, I'm also like, like my kid, my four year old is coming home with every preschool germ imaginable. And like, we're in all these Q and As and things like that, where I'm like, "Sorry, I can't shake your hand. I have a newborn at home." And I'm like, trying to stay awake, keep the baby away from my four year old so she doesn't infect him with her germs. And you know, it's just like, oh, here we are in the middle of our juggle, and let me go talk to you right now for this podcast. Rebecca Ford: [laughs] I don't know how you do... I don't think I got out of bed for the first [laughs] five weeks. So the fact that you are just doing the interviews and juggling it all is pretty, pretty impressive. [laughs] Zoe Kazan: Again, I, I really do feel like... you know, my mom like, making me chicken soup, and you know, changing my baby's diaper. [laughs] It's just like- Rebecca Ford: Yeah. Zoe Kazan: ... it's the greatest blessing. Rebecca Ford: Um, I did want to ask you about sort of what's next, even though you're really in the thick of it right now. But I know you were, you're working on a limited series based on East of Eden. Where are you in the process of writing that? Zoe Kazan: Um, I'd love to talk about that. [laughs] Rebecca Ford: [laughs] Zoe Kazan: Um, I, I got hired to write this in March of 2020, basically, and I've been... so, I've been working on it for two plus years now. I have basically the whole thing written, and we're just putting it together. Um, but it's been like, the greatest joy for me. I never had a daily writing practice. I was always fitting my writing in around my acting jobs, so I got really good at, or I got really proficient at, um, writing a first draft really quickly. I got used to rewriting in like, little snippets here and there. And then this pandemic hit around, exactly around the same time as I started working on this. And suddenly, like, you know, we didn't have childcare for the first year of that pandemic, but we were giving each other three hours a day to work. Um, so I didn't have a lot of time, but I knew I had time every day. And it totally transformed my writing practice, and I'm so proud of what we're making. And it really has been like, one of the greatest creative joys of my life. It's, it's a book I've loved since I was like, 14, and, um, I just can't believe I've gotten to- to work on this. Rebecca Ford: And obviously you have a family connection with your grandfather having directed the earlier film. Did that make you more interested in doing this or less? Or how do you navigate that? Zoe Kazan: Yeah, um, I mean, if anything, it should have made me trepidatious. I have really tried not to mix family and work. You know, I think I would feel differently if that adaptation were closer to the book. I don't know if you've ever read Steinbeck's novel. Rebecca Ford: Yep, I loved it. Zoe Kazan: It's like, so sprawling, and it takes you from the Civil War into the first World War. And the, the 1955 film really only covers the last like, third or fourth of the book. There's a whole other like, wealth of stuff in there. For me, my entry point as a teenager was in Cathy, who is the sort of, female lead of the book. In the movie, you meet her as like, a matriarch. You meet her as a person, you know, squarely in middle age. And in the book, you get this whole portrait of a person, a really unconventional person. And she was sort of my way in. So, I'm really invited to get to tell a different version of that story. Rebecca Ford: And that's the role that Florence Pugh is currently attached to? That's exciting. Zoe Kazan: That's right. Rebecca Ford: Um, yeah, I think telling it as a limited series will give it a lot of room, which sounds like a great way to do it. Zoe Kazan: Yeah, I don't think I could ever adapt it as a movie. Like, the version I'm interested in is the big sprawl of it, you know? I think it's, it's about three generations of a family, and I don't know how you tell that [laughs] in two or three hours. Rebecca Ford: Yeah. Well, is there... before we wrap up, is there sort of a lasting impression for you of She Said? Something from this experience that you'll sort of take on, you know, to your next project and your next one? Zoe Kazan: It's the first time that I've really felt like I had an acting partner on a movie. Like, I've felt that on stage before, but as soon as Carey and I knew we were cast on this, we started working on it together. We would Zoom from New York to England, and, and sort of break down the script together and talk through it. And, um, it felt like we were making something together. Like, it was this thing that we were building. Um, and on set, I felt like we like, quickly ditched our second dressing room and shared a, [laughs] shared a dressing room. The way that we had when we were in our early 20s and first met doing a play together. And we would just go in there and run our lines, and brainstorm, and you know, we had read that Dustin Hoffman and Robert Redford learned all of each other's lines so they could kind of speak over each other. So we had learned all each other's lines, and so we were running things backwards and forwards. And if I was in a scene without Carey and I needed help, I would text her. And it just felt like this sort of like, group project. Um, and the, the movie is also about, in a way, like collective action. Like, the power of sisterhood. And it made me feel sort of like, [laughs] sad for all the other times that, you know... at least in my career, it's often been like, I'm, I'm one of the only women, or I'm the only women in a project. Made me really want to make more of my own work so that I can, I mean have this experience again. You know, it just felt like it should be setting a standard for myself. Katey Rich: So, now we're gonna hear the conversation that David Canfield had with Hong Chau, who is having really an exceptional Fall. Um, she's in The Menu, the Searchlight Pictures movie that's, um, doing really well at the specialty box office now. And she's also going to be in The Whale. Um, a movie that's been all over the festival circuit, and you've probably heard about for Brendan Fraser's, um, really towering central performance. I haven't seen The Whale yet, but Rebecca, you have, and I think you have... you- you can report that back, that Hong Chau really is worth talking about. Rebecca Ford: Yeah, I mean, everyone has been talking about Brendan's performance, but I think Hong really has to, uh, stand out in the scenes she's in with him. And she really delivers. I just think she's sort of hit it out of the park in everything she's in, and- and she's definitely someone to pay attention to. So I was curious to hear more about, um, how she sort of found this character in The Whale, who is someone who is also dealing with grief. Katey Rich: Yeah, and I know you haven't seen The Menu yet, Rebecca, but she's really outstanding in- in a role that, like many things in The Menu, is not worth, um, spoiling. But she has this very stern, kind of terrifying presence, uh, that only grows as the film goes on. And then also, uh, it's not coming out til next year, but she was in the Kelly Reichardt movie, Showing Up. Which was at the New York Film Festival, um, opposite Michelle Williams. And she's really like, warm and funny, and so different from her character in The Whale in that. So, she's so, um, versatile, and it's really exciting to get her, to get to see her do all of this. So, let's hear David's conversation with Hong Chau. David Canfield: Okay, uh, Hong Chau, we have a lot of projects to discuss. Um, you're, you're everywhere. [laughs] Hong Chau: Uh, yeah, I had a really good 2021. David Canfield: Yeah. Hong Chau: Um, yeah. [laughs] David Canfield: You did it right. [laughs] Hong Chau: [laughs] It was not by design. It- it was all, it just kind of came to me, and I was as surprised with each one... my great luck. David Canfield: So, we- we'll go through all of them. We've got, um, The Whale, which is, uh, out in December. We've got The Menu, Showing Up, the Kelly Reichardt film... more on the way. Uh, I'm curious to start, given that these are such a range of characters that you get to play, um, which is always exciting... but walk me through, this wa- this period of like, these offers coming in. What kind of stuff were you looking for? What struck you about these particularly? I mean, obviously they're great projects, but I imagine it's like... you know, there's, you've got something in mind, and then this stuff comes your way. So, how did that align? Hong Chau: Yeah. Um, I actually wasn't looking for anything. I, I even struggled with saying yes to them once they did, um, kind of show up in my life. Um, I... let's see, so this was 2021. I had just had a baby, my first child. And I was totally looking forward to staying at home, and just having baby feed all day, and not working. And ye-, there was COVID, it was also the height of COVID. David Canfield: Mm-hmm. Hong Chau: So I really was not looking to get out of my bubble at all. And so January 2021, my agent says, "Here's this script for Darren Aronofsky's next project. It's based off of a play. Um, have you ever heard of it?" And because I live in LA, or I lived in LA, um, I hadn't. And I, I read it, and I thought, "Oh, gosh..." [laughs] David Canfield: [laughs] Hong Chau: "This is, this is a lot." Um... David Canfield: Yeah. Hong Chau: "And it's great, but I don't know if this is for me right now in my life." Um, and so I just, that's what I said, and I let it go. And you know, he, my agent pestered me about it again, like a little later. He was like, "All right..." [laughs] He's like, "It's Darren Aronofsky." [laughs] I was like, "Yes, I know, but... uh, but, uh, I just had a baby, and I don't really want to go to work right now." [laughs] David Canfield: [laughs] Hong Chau: Um, and yeah, I just, I read it again, and... I think what got me to come around to it was just the story. I, um, I really sympathized and empathized with, uh, the main character's journey. And I- I thought it was so heartbreaking that he had lost all of this time with his daughter, his only daughter. And I was just so sad. And- and i just understood that, that ticking clock that he was feeling, you know? Because I was- David Canfield: Mm-hmm. Hong Chau: ... holding this baby, and I had just had a child for the first time the 41. And even though I was like, really excited and happy, part of me was also lamenting that I wouldn't get to know her- David Canfield: Hm. Hong Chau: ... for as long as I wanted to. And I don't know, I guess that's what kinda made me say yes to, uh, throwing my hat in the ring. Oh, the other thing was that, you know, the character wasn't written specifically for an Asian person. And so- David Canfield: Mm-hmm. Hong Chau: ... I just thought, "Oh, there's just, there's just like, no way. There's so many other people." You know, like so many other great people who are also more famous than me [laughs] who could, who could, who could also play this character. And so, I just, I just thought, "Oh, there's just really no, no chance." And, um, I made an audition tape. Oh, I had also gotten used to not auditioning. [laughs] So... David Canfield: [laughs] This is, this is unchartered territory. Hong Chau: That was, that- that was another thing. Um, yeah, ever since Downsizing, I've been really lucky, where all of the jobs that I took were just bas- basically offered to me. Because the writer, the creator, or director had just seen me in something- David Canfield: Hm. Hong Chau: ... prior to that. And, uh, I've just been really lucky, and just, you know, haven't really had to, to- to tap dance for anything. So when this came around, I was like, "I'm, I don't know if I can do it. I don't know if I can properly, um, digest the material, and- and come up with something that would be worthy of putting on tape and having... you know, the Darren Aronofsky possibly seeing it." So, um, yeah. It all worked out. [laughs] David Canfield: It did. It did. It- it's interesting too, because I was really struck by your first scene, your first moments in the movie. Because you and Brendan have this immediate, incredibly naturalistic rapport, where I'm like... you know, you, I can see the love, the connection that these characters have. I feel it, and it's just, there's just no denying it. Which especially for, you know, a movie adapted from a play that has those stagey conventions at times, it's really important... um, I imagine that came from a certain connection between you and Brendan that was able to come onto the screen. Hong Chau: I love Brendan Fraser. It's, it's funny, I, I had never actually seen one of his movies. I had never seen, um, what is it? The Mummy... David Canfield: Mm-hmm. Hong Chau: George of the Jungle. Encino Man. Um, [laughs] what else am I missing here? David Canfield: [laughs] Hong Chau: I, you- you know- David Canfield: Um, you have Gods and Monsters, you got a lot. Yeah. Hong Chau: Gods and Monsters. I, I just hadn't... I don't know where I was. I'm definitely in the right age group to be one of his super fans, but he just didn't hold, um... I didn't have any sort of, um, adolescent, uh, connection or fandom to him, prior to meeting him. I just got to meet him as he is at the present. And that so rarely happens, I think. Because, you know, I- I have gotten to work with some really great people who are very famous. But for some reason, I have known too much about them prior [laughs] to working with them, because- David Canfield: I can, I can, I can imagine. [laughs] Hong Chau: [laughs] You know? Um, and in this case, I didn't really know anything about Brendan. Um, and so I just got to meet him, uh, as he, as he was, as he is. And he was just so warm, and just sweet, and lovable, and kind, and those are just qualities that just exudes from him. You know? David Canfield: Mm-hmm. Hong Chau: He, he doesn't really... he doesn't really have to do too much [laughs] for, for you to want to just, uh, hug him. So, um, you know, our first meeting was at the table read. And he knew that I had a baby, so he had a little gift bag for me. David Canfield: Hm. Hong Chau: And I just thought that was really sweet and thoughtful. And I guess the way to my heart as an actor is just to be really open and generous with your, um, fellow cast members. Um, and that's, that's how he was at the table read. And it was just, it was just really easy. David Canfield: Hm. The contrast, I suppose, of the easiness as you're working through some emotionally intense material. Like you said, when you read it, it's a lot. Um... Hong Chau: Mm-hmm. [laughs] David Canfield: So, [laughs] I mean, what was it like working through that? Uh, especially when you have that kind of trust and connection with an actor. Hong Chau: We had three weeks of rehearsal prior to starting, uh, shooting on the film. And it was a really good time for the actors to just get everything out of our systems, in terms of just being bad. You know, and not, and saying the words out loud for the first time. And, um, putting the words with movement, and- and getting it in our bodies. Um, it- it felt a little strange, because it, it wasn't quite, uh, like a traditional rehearsal. Because, um, so much of it was geared towards technical blocking. David Canfield: Hm. Hong Chau: So even before we felt like we had really, um, gotten a chance to, to emotionally explore the, the- the text or our characters... [laughs] Darren was already like, um, "Can you be more over here as opposed to over here?" And so it felt a little restrictive at first, but you know, it all made sense, um, once I saw the movie... how specific [laughs] our, our, our placements were. David Canfield: Mm-hmm. Hong Chau: Um, on the set, because he... the guy knows what he's doing. [laughs] David Canfield: So we've learned. [laughs] Hong Chau: Um, it felt restrictive at first, because I was like, "Well, I don't know if I want to be over there yet, Darren." You know? And, um- David Canfield: Yeah. Hong Chau: ... but it- it was, you can't really argue with, uh, somebody who, who has a very thoughtful, uh, game plan of- of how he wants the- the film to look. Um, part of me was very curious... I guess another reason why I said yes to the project was because when I read the script, it didn't seem like... something I would imagine Darren Aronofsky would direct. Like, the- the, it just seemed like a strange story for him of all people to direct. And so I was curious to see what he would do with it and how he would put his signature on it. And he absolutely did. Um, so I'm, you know, I'm [laughs]... David Canfield: [laughs] Hong Chau: I'm glad I was there to bear witness to, to his, um, to his process and his work. David Canfield: I'm- I'm also curious about the, um... for lack of a better way of putting it, educational aspect of the film for you. I've covered the movie a bit. I've spoken with Brendan and Darren. And, you know, I've learned a ton, just about, you know, their work with the Obesity Action Coalition, and terminology, and how to speak about what this character's dealing with. And you're playing a caregiver in this film, and... who's so enmeshed in his world. What did you learn about that? What was your kind of exposure to really the more educational part of what Darren and, and co were bringing forward? Hong Chau: Um, well I worked with the, um, our movement coach. David Canfield: Mm-hmm. Hong Chau: But I know she, she went by a different term... [laughs] David Canfield: Okay. [laughs] Hong Chau: Than movement coach. Um, but she worked with, uh, Brendan and also with me, in terms of where I should be and how I- I could help support him in a way that was accurate. You know? Yeah, she was just really helpful and just made me think more about, um, physically how to dance with Brendan as my partner. Um, and in terms of, uh... I never actually spoke with the Obesity Action Coalition, um, in the way that Brendan did. I kind of got information through them secondhand, you know, once I was- David Canfield: Mm-hmm. Hong Chau: ... on set. It was like, a lot through Darren, because he's just really good at articulating, um, those things. Um, and then I think... I think the script itself just had so much love for the character, that I didn't feel like we were, um... you know, encroaching on any dangerous territory. David Canfield: Yeah. Yeah, no, I completely agree. Well, you, you mentioned Darren and, at times specific directions. I'm curious how that would compare to someone like Mark Mylod, um, on a movie like The Menu. [laughs] Which is, uh- Hong Chau: [laughs] David Canfield: ... a very different brand of, of maybe controlled chaos. [laughs] Hong Chau: Yeah, um, when I read the script for The Menu, you know, Elsa kind of pops in and out. And so I thought, "Oh, this is nice. I'll just, um, I won't be there the whole time." David Canfield: [laughs] Hong Chau: And I'll just like, come in and film my parts, and just... [laughs] get to enjoy my family at home. No. I was there all day, every day. [laughs] David Canfield: Oh, really? Hong Chau: Um, because, because he had to shoot 360, like all the time, basically, with the amount of, um... because it's, again, a- also another movie that's mainly in one, on one set. David Canfield: Mm-hmm. Hong Chau: And I forget how many tables there were. I think there were six, six tables. David Canfield: I think six. Hong Chau: Eleven diners. Um, eleven or twelve diners. Um, so yeah, there, there was a lot of coverage to shoot. And the only that Mark could do that was if we were all doing everything all at once. And then, um, Peter would just move around with the camera and try to capture as much as he could. Because there was a good portion that was scripted, but then there were other parts where Mark asked us to improve. And so he would try to capture some of that as well. David Canfield: Hm. Hong Chau: Um, so yeah, it was... [laughs] that, the- the, that one... the direction on the- The Menu was just, "Keep going, keep going." David Canfield: [laughs] Hong Chau: "Stay in the scene. Just keep going." [laughs] David Canfield: Love it. I, I've loved learning over the years about like, you know, your contributions to your characters. Like on Watchmen, I know you brought in some pretty specific ideas. So, when you get that kind of freedom with a character like this, um, what are you bringing to the table? I mean, even her look is so specific and fun in this. Hong Chau: Yeah, I- I, it's funny that you bring up Watchmen, because I felt I was in the same situation with The Menu. I felt like I really had to convince, um, Mark to let me look [laughs] the way I looked in the movie. [laughs] David Canfield: [laughs] I'm so glad you did. Hong Chau: When I read the script for The Menu, I was in Portland shooting, uh, Showing Up. David Canfield: Mm-hmm. Hong Chau: And, um, and the movie, the script, the story was set in the Pacific Northwest. And so, I thought, "Oh, it would be cool if, um, you know, I could kind of bring some Pacific Northwest funkiness." [laughs] David Canfield: Yeah. Hong Chau: You know, to this character. Like, if she had like, cool hair, or, you know, just, just some sort of like, edge to her. And, um, I sent some, some inspiration photos. And it was like, "No, no, no, no, no." [laughs] David Canfield: [laughs] What are you sending me? Hong Chau: "No, no, no, no, no. [laughs] We want her to look very, um, plain, and, uh, just blend into the background. Uh, just very plain hair. Very plain, boring clothes." And I was like, "What? [laughs] No." David Canfield: [laughs] Hong Chau: "No. No, no, no." So it was, it was a lot of back and forth. And thankfully, um, Amy Westcott, who is the costume designer, who also happens to be Mark Mylod's wife- David Canfield: Oh, okay. Hong Chau: ... was on my side about [laughs], about this. And, um, we, we played around with, uh, different costumes. And the one that we landed with was the most visually impactful, and, uh, you know, it kind of went against what initially, um, Mark and also the writers were, were thinking. Um, but... I think we were right in the end. [laughs] David Canfield: [laughs] You absolutely were. Hong Chau: [laughs] It's like, "Hong, why, what about the script made you think you should bleach your eyebrows?" David Canfield: [laughs] Hong Chau: I was like, "I don't know. That's what I saw when I read it, Mark." [laughs] David Canfield: Just gotta do it, yeah. Trust the instinct. It- it reminded me of, um, Inherent Vice in a way. Of like, you really popping in this incredibly big, colorful ensemble. Where there's a lot of personalities to navigate, and you're firmly among them. [laughs] Hong Chau: [laughs] Yeah. I remember that, um, audition very clearly. Um, I was super nervous, 'cause I was such a big fan of Paul Thomas Anderson. And there was no script. You just had to go in and improvise. Um, but sh- she did, uh, the casting director did give, um, like a couple of pages of some scenes to like, quickly read over and just sort of come up with something. And I was thinking, "Oh, my God." [laughs] Um, first of all, the writing... tension is like, so... David Canfield: Colorful. [laughs] Hong Chau: You know? I didn't know where to, where to go with it. And then also, um, I didn't know how to be sexy. And so I was like, "This is, this is what I can do." I don't know. [laughs] "This is all I got." David Canfield: Right. Hong Chau: "This is how I can do it." Um, and- and, uh, and thankfully it, it made him laugh or something, or it tickled him. David Canfield: Love it. [laughs] Hong Chau: [laughs] David Canfield: Uh, well you mentioned showing up, um, Kelly Reichardt, one of our great filmmakers, um... Hong Chau: Yes, she is. David Canfield: And it's another character where you get to have some fun. There's a lot of pigeon acting, particularly. Hong Chau: Mm-hmm. David Canfield: [laughs] Hong Chau: Mm-hmm. Yeah, there, uh, I mean, I think... I would say almost all of her movies feature some sort of animal, right? Um- David Canfield: Yes, they do. Hong Chau: ... in a very charming way. I feel like there's no small parts in a Kelly Reichardt movie. She somehow gives them the day players and- and animals alike. I feel like she gives each, um, person or animal that, uh, is a part of her movie some- some special frame or special moment. Um, so I was tickled [laughs] that I would get to work with a pigeon, um, in her movie, in what I think is her first comedy. Um... David Canfield: Yes. Hong Chau: And my- my very first day meeting Michelle Williams was during pigeon training, so I will always remember that. [laughs] David Canfield: Oh, wow. She caught you mid... Hong Chau: [laughs] David Canfield: Deep in it, deep in it. [laughs] Yep. Um, I- I did want to ask, with- with all of these projects... and you've also, I believe you're in the new Wes Anderson movie that's coming up, and on and on I could go. It's a very exciting time. I- I- I'd read that after Downsizing, you'd taken a little break from, particularly from bigger projects, mainstream projects... said no to some things. Was there a kind of shift for you in starting to say yes to more of them? Between that period. Hong Chau: Um, I think... it's easy to say yes to Darren Aronofsky and Karen Reichardt- David Canfield: Yes. Hong Chau: ... and Wes Anderson, and Mark Mylod. [laughs] Um, those- those are pretty, um, easy yeses. Um, but the only thing that complicates it now is just, um, making sure that it still works for my family. David Canfield: Yeah. Hong Chau: I'm not as, um, I guess, uh, so single minded in terms of, uh, my priorities. And, um, I don't know, I think I'm just interested in living life. I, I... it took me a while to get my career going. And then once I actually did, I kind of got to start with the very best, you know? David Canfield: Mm-hmm. Hong Chau: Um, like Inherent Vice was my first movie. David Canfield: Right. Hong Chau: And then Downsizing was my second movie. [laughs] You know, so- David Canfield: [inaudible 00:43:52] [laughs] Hong Chau: Right, yeah. And even, even The Whale, I think is only my fifth movie, so you know, it's- David Canfield: Wow. Hong Chau: ... um, it's not like I have a really long resume, but it's just the- the people that I've been able to work with are just amazing. And I would be so lucky to, even to just work with them again a second time, you know? For whatever I, however many years I have left in, in my career. David Canfield: Between this chunk that we talked about, you mentioned wanting to try new things. Was there anything that felt like, scary new? Like, really just like, I am diving into something that I have not done before? Hong Chau: Well, each one was so different. You know, um, with The Whale, there was so much dialogue, and- David Canfield: Yeah. Hong Chau: ... um, the- the script was still very much like the, the play. Um, and the way we rehearsed it and worked our way into it was still very mu- very theatrical. Um, so that was an experience. And then... Showing Up was so completely different, because we shot The Whale in February in upstate New York, and there was three feet of snow on the ground when I arrived. [laughs] David Canfield: It felt cold. Hong Chau: It felt cold, and we were in this, uh, warehouse that the... that's where the set was. And we were just there every day in the dark all day long. And then to get to go to Portland in the Spring, and just... it felt like we were hanging out. Kelly would just joke like, "This movie shouldn't be called Showing Up, it should be called Hanging Out." [laughs] David Canfield: Subtitle... or hanging out. Hong Chau: Or hanging out. Um, and that one felt... I couldn't have anticipated how physical that role was. Um, when- David Canfield: Hm. Hong Chau: ... I was reading it on the page, it- it felt very light and funny. And my focus was on the art and being an artist- David Canfield: Yeah. Hong Chau: ... and whatever that means. And so, I wasn't expecting that, you know, I get to... I'd have to, um, learn how to do a tire swing, and, and... [laughs] and drive a truck, a pickup truck. And- and do all of this art that was actually very physical. I got to spend a day with Michelle Segre who is, um, the artist whose work I, um, uh, copy in the movie. David Canfield: Hm. Hong Chau: And her work is very physical, because they're, um, large installations. David Canfield: Right. Hong Chau: And a lot of it is around the metal frame that she uses pipes for, and she actually bends them physically with just her hands... with her body. She puts her body into it, and so, um, all of that was- was very physical. Um, yeah, it was just... it had different demands. [laughs] You know- David Canfield: Yeah. Hong Chau: ... it wasn't, um, there wasn't a lot of text and a lot of dialogue. And sometimes I, I, I enjoy that. You know, where you just get to try to sit in, in the, in the space of a character and just, um, be that person without having to- to monologue. Um, and then there's other times like The Whale, where it's like, "Ah, I get this amazing monologue. Wow." But it, yeah, it, I'm really... I can go either way. I think it's just about variety and just whatever feels right, uh, for the scene, for the character, for the movie. Um, I think I actually cut some of my own lines from The Menu, because I didn't feel like i needed to say them. And Mark was laughing, and he's like, "You're the only actor I know who-" David Canfield: [laughs] Hong Chau: "... asks to cut lines." [laughs] I'm like, "Well, if you don't need it, you know..." Katey Rich: That does it for today's show. We'll be back on Thursday with our round table conversation. In the meantime, find us at VanityFair.com, on Twitter @HWD, and on our own, I am @KateyRich, and Rebecca? Rebecca Ford: BeccaMFord. Katey Rich: And David, you can find @DavidCanfield97. Our editor and producer as always is Brad Fuchs.