Chioma Nnadi: This is, The Run-Through. I'm Chioma Nnadi. Chloe Malle: And I'm Chloe Malle. Chioma Nnadi: We're so happy to have our dear colleague, Maya Singer, this week, who has written an incredible story. She's a contributing writer, and has been for... She's written several cover stories. But this week, she had a very special assignment. And I want you, Maya, to tell us more about it. Maya Singer: Uh, well I got a last minute call on Thursday night, asking me if, in the, at some time in the next 24 hours, I can fly down to Florida and interview Stormy Daniels. Chioma Nnadi: [laughs]. Chloe Malle: Last, Thursday? Maya Singer: Yes. Chioma Nnadi: Mm. Maya Singer: Mm-hmm. And that was an unusual assignment for me, because it's not... I'm not, normally, like the person who's, kind of getting, dispatched to do big, kind of, political profiles, celebrity profiles. But obviously, I jumped at the chance, it sort of, one, in a lifetime opportunity. She's an icon. Chioma Nnadi: [laughing]. And do you think that, more, now that you've actually met her? Maya Singer: I mean, now that I've met her, it's like, I feel like I've encountered the woman, you know. But, um, it's always, it's always interesting. It felt like, I was doing in real-time, this, like, process that we have, like, as a culture, have been doing, um, retrospectively, about people like Monica Lewinsky and Pamela Anderson- Chioma Nnadi: Mm-hmm. Maya Singer: Where we're, sort of, thinking about the actual person, who was like, behind the, kind of, scandal that, like, became this, like, iconic figure in society, but also disparaged, and whatever. And, you know, and then just, actually, like, sitting in her house- Chioma Nnadi: Right. Maya Singer: ... meeting her husband. Like, you know, you realize, like, that this is just like, a living, breathing person. Chloe Malle: So you fly... We're not gonna say a specific location, because she's receiving a lot of death threats. Um- Chioma Nnadi: It's awful. Chloe Malle: But, it's somewhere in central Florida. What... Tell me about what, what her house looks like, what did she serve you? What... Does she... What was she wearing? Like, what does, Stormy, at home, look like? Maya Singer: So, I mean, it's funny, because like, I grew up in central Florida. Chloe Malle: Oh, okay. Maya Singer: And, um, you know, she lives in a more rural part of the state, than, than I'm from. But, in lots of ways, like, eh, her house, walking into it, felt very familiar to me, in a lot of respects. It's in a development. Houses are, kind of, suburban-style tract houses, pretty big, but they're set on, like, enough acreage, that people have, you know, room to keep, like, horses and farm, or do whatever. Um, but it's still- Chloe Malle: But she's a great equestrian, right? Maya Singer: Yes. Chioma Nnadi: Mm. Maya Singer: She's a very serious equestrian and, you know, has her new horse in her backyard, Redemption, and- Chloe Malle: Oh my God. Chioma Nnadi: I know, the name of it- Chloe Malle: [laughs]. Chioma Nnadi: The name of it, killed me. Chloe Malle: Wow. Chioma Nnadi: Redemption. Maya Singer: [laughs]. Redemption. And she has, very decisive taste. Um- Chloe Malle: Give us an example. Maya Singer: [laughs]. Well- Chioma Nnadi: Yeah, what does that mean? [laughs]. Maya Singer: No, just like, you know, I mean it's not like, she ordered her, like, décor and tit-sense of style, like, out of the Pottery Barn catalog. I mean, she's got like, blood-red walls in her living room. Chioma Nnadi: Wow. Okay. Maya Singer: Um, the- Chloe Malle: Wow. Maya Singer: Yeah. There's a lot of, like, occult, sort of, art. She's got... Like, when she was living in New Orleans, um, until recently, she got, like, very into the occult. But then, you go into the kitchen and she's like, pointing out... I mean, it was very, like, suburban home tour, where she's sort of, like, we haven't taken out these cabinets yet, so, like, don't judge. Chioma Nnadi: [laughs]. Maya Singer: And, [laughs]- Chloe Malle: I love it. Maya Singer: Just like, extremely normal. Extremely, like, normal, going to somebody's home, where she's just, sort of, like, it's messy, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And, uh, she's wearing, like, a little frilly, uh, navy sundress, and her hair was up in a ponytail. And honestly, she might have had make-up on, but if so, it was like, very minimal. Uh- Chloe Malle: And what was her husband like? Was he part of your chat, or not really? Maya Singer: [laughs]. He was, kinda, in and out. I mean, it's funny, she, sort of, not, like, introduced him to me indirectly. He was out of the house, when I first arrived, literally, like, going to buy hay for the horse. Chloe Malle: Wow. Chioma Nnadi: Wow. Maya Singer: And, uh, and it's like, he's from LA and they, like, basically moved to Florida together, right after they got married. And we were talking about the fact, before, like, I really even started, like, you know, recording anything. We were just talking about the fact that I'd grown up in Florida, you know. And she was just like, yeah, you know, this morning... Because it was really hot, as I say, in peace. And, uh, she's like, this morning, Barrett got up and he, like, walks out of the bedroom, he's like, babe, there's a problem. And she's, like, oh my God, what? You know, [laughs], because she's just, like, super on edge. And he, sort of, like, gestures to his outfit, and he's wearing a pair of shorts and some flip-flops and like, a flannel shirt with, like, the arms cut off. Chloe Malle: Oh my gosh. Maya Singer: And he, and he's like, I'm starting to look, Florida. Chioma Nnadi: [laughs]. Maya Singer: And she's like, is that a problem? And he's like, no, the problem is, I like it. Chioma Nnadi: [laughs]. Chloe Malle: Oh my gosh. Maya Singer: [laughing]. And that was, sort of, like, I felt like I really, kinda like, understood- Chioma Nnadi: Awe. Maya Singer: ... like, their dynamic, just from, like, that one anecdote. Chloe Malle: Uh-huh. Maya Singer: Um, and then when he finally- Chloe Malle: Wow. That makes me, really like him. Chioma Nnadi: Me, too. Chloe Malle: [laughs]. Maya Singer: He was, just, you know... he showed up, he introduced himself, and then he, kinda, retreated to the other family room, den area, to go watch Sunday football. I mean, you know, just being a dude- Chioma Nnadi: [laughs]. Maya Singer: ... on a Sunday. Chloe Malle: How do you think she's feeling about everything? 'Cause I, I feel like she went through a round of, telling her side of the story, and this is round two. What, what do you find... And you talk about this a bit, in the piece, but what do you find is different, in how she's, sort of, controlling her narrative? Maya Singer: I really found it fascinating, um, talking to her about the ways that she has, sort of, for all the times that she told the story, like, back in 2018, 2019, and since. That, she's just really been going through this process of re-evaluation. Chioma Nnadi: Mm. Maya Singer: She, really reminded me a lot of girls that I went to high school with, who had, like, no money and a lot of hustle. Right? Chloe Malle: Mm-hmm. Chioma Nnadi: Mm-hmm. Maya Singer: And they, just... they were so, kinda like, tough and street smart and self-reliant. But, kind of like, didn't fully, like, maybe always, understand the ways that they were still incredibly, like, naïve and vulnerable. Chloe Malle: Mm. Chioma Nnadi: Mm. Maya Singer: And, and when I got the sense of talking to her, was that, like, she spent a really long time in that, kind of like, defiant, I was... I'm in control, like of this whole situation, joking about it, sort of, process. And then it was, just recently, that she started to reckon with the concept that, like, actually, maybe, she didn't have a lot of agency, in that situation. Chloe Malle: Right. Chioma Nnadi: Yeah, the 90 seconds, that, that really struck me. Maya Singer: No, I mean, this was absolutely the thing, that like, struck me as like, one of those things, you know, when you talk to people and you just, like, there's this moment where you kind of, lock into something that they're saying, and you realize, like, you're hitting, like, something very, very real- Chioma Nnadi: Mm. Maya Singer: ... and that I could identify with. And I feel like a lot of women, who probably identify with, and who have been in ambiguous situations- Chioma Nnadi: Mm. Maya Singer: ... um, sexually, where the lines are just, really, really gray, between, like, what's consenting and what's not consenting. And she talks about how, like, she's still, to this day, has this memory gap of, like, 90 seconds, where she can remember, kinda, coming out of his bathroom in the hotel room and seeing him on the bed, undressed, and it totally shocked her. And she had, like, all these thoughts, that kinda race through her mind, all at once. And then, there's this erasure of her memory, because she cannot, no matter how hard she thinks about it, figure out how she got from the threshold of the bathroom, to being underneath him in the bed. And- Chloe Malle: Wow. Chioma Nnadi: Mm. Maya Singer: She, really, like, kinda of, was so granular in how she talked about it. And the thing, that really struck me, it was just when she started... and this is in the piece. When she started talking about the shoes, because- Chloe Malle: Mm-hmm. Maya Singer: She, you know, she had this thing, where she was like, I was wearing a dress. The dress was, like a T-shirt, whatever, but the shoes, were these, like, gold shoes with buckles, and they were such a pain to get on and get off. Chloe Malle: Oh, wow. Chioma Nnadi: And she wonders how she... Yeah, and how she- Maya Singer: And, and I- Chioma Nnadi: ... managed it. Maya Singer: And I, just, I know that I took them off and that it had to be process, because after it was over, I had to put them back on. Chloe Malle: Mm. Maya Singer: And that, I remember. And I remember that feeling of just, like, wanting to get out of there. So, when did I take my shoes off? Why did I take them off? Chioma Nnadi: Mm. Maya Singer: Like, I don't know how to answer these questions. And I, I just, think about that, as like, I can identify with, like, experiences in my, my own life, as a woman, where I've just, sort of, had that... Like, looking back on a situation and being, like, where did go? Chloe Malle: Right. Chioma Nnadi: Mm-mm. Maya Singer: You know? Chioma Nnadi: And how you survi-... like, how you, kind of, have to... I don't know what, what mental things happen in your brain, if you disassociate for the time that is, you know? Maya Singer: Mm-hmm. I mean, I just think about it, as being in the situation, where you, kind of, disassociate, because you just are in a situation, where you just don't feel like you have a good choice to make. Chioma Nnadi: Mm. Chloe Malle: Right. Maya Singer: So, you're like, all right, I don't know, I'm just gonna go... I'm gonna take whatever feels, like... I mean, my assumption, is she probably did what many people would do, which is, you take the easiest- Chloe Malle: Mm-hmm. Maya Singer: ... route. Which is, just to like, go along with it, let the powerful person, who's sort of, standing in your way, and is also offering you all these opportunities that sound really good to you, and you're just like, okay, whatever, it's like, not a big deal. But, that's not a real choice, so you just, you, you alienate from it, and disappear. Chloe Malle: What I thought was really interesting in your piece, Maya, was when you talk about the, the complicated way she grappled with, the way the media depicted her, and this, sort of, liberal feminist cry, of like, call her Stephanie Clifford, she's a woman, not a porn star. And, that she, sort of said, well, no, I'm a woman and I'm a porn star, and my name is Stormy Daniels. How did you figure out how to navigate that, yourself, and also, how did she talk to you about that, now, a few years later? Maya Singer: I mean, what's interesting to me, about Stormy Daniels, is like, that she, just doesn't fit into any of the, sort of, political boxes, that we like to think, like, the little ice cube tray of like- Chloe Malle: Right. Maya Singer: ... this goes here, and this goes here. I mean, she is a person who, you know, is still a registered Republican. She rides horses. She, you know... but she's also, like, she is very libertarian, in like a lot of ways, and you know, just wanting to kind of, to be very free, to like, live her own life. And, the way that she thinks about working in the porn industry, would be familiar to people who go to, like, DSA meetings in Brooklyn- Chloe Malle: Hm. Maya Singer: And like, you know, sex work, is work. But I don't think that, like, Stormy would enjoy being at those meetings. Chioma Nnadi: [laughs]. No, Chloe Malle: DSA, is- Chioma Nnadi: I doubt it. Chloe Malle: ... Democratic Socialists of America. Maya Singer: Yes. And, PS, I'm not sure many people, actually enjoy being in those meetings. [laughs]. Chloe Malle: [laughs]. Maya Singer: Present company, included. Chioma Nnadi: [laughs]. Maya Singer: They're often very tiresome. [laughs]. Chioma Nnadi: [laughs]. Chloe Malle: I love the image of Stormy, just like- Maya Singer: [laughs]. Chloe Malle: ... busting through the doors. Maya Singer: [laughing]. Chloe Malle: [inaudible 00:11:07]. [laughs]. Is she still a working porn actress, or is she retired? Maya Singer: No. I mean, it depends on how you define it. I mean, she's definitely like, very oriented towards writing and directing. Chloe Malle: Yeah, she mentions- Chioma Nnadi: What, what do you think that she means, by writing and directing a project? Do... Is it, uh, what, what- Maya Singer: She want- Chioma Nnadi: What is the nature of it? Maya Singer: She wants to write and direct a feature film. She's going out of town to, um, try to get some money to make, what, in Hollywood is know as, like, a proof of concept, short. And then, there hoping, like, off the back of that, that they can, then, you know, get somebody to fund, like the full feature. But this is not gonna be an adult film, this is just- Chioma Nnadi: Right. Maya Singer: ... a mainstream film. Chloe Malle: Wow, interesting. Do you think you and Stormy are gonna stay in touch? Maya Singer: I don't know. I mean, I think that- Chioma Nnadi: Have you heard from her? Maya Singer: We exchanged... you know, we ta- Chioma Nnadi: Did she- Maya Singer: ... we traded texts- Chioma Nnadi: ... see that things... Yeah. Maya Singer: ... like, afterwards. And you know, I thanked her for, like, opening her home to me, and she was like, you know, feel free to be in touch, if you have any more questions. Chloe Malle: Has she been in touch, since the piece? Chioma Nnadi: Since the piece? Maya Singer: No, no. Chioma Nnadi: That's... No news, is good news, I think. It means- Maya Singer: I, I agree. And I mean, it's just a piece- Chloe Malle: I mean, I've, I... No one reaches out, after a story. Chioma Nnadi: People d- Chloe Malle: Very rare. Chioma Nnadi: Very, very rare. Chloe Malle: I will s- Chioma Nnadi: You're right, very rare. Chloe Malle: I- Chioma Nnadi: It's only happened to me, like, a handful of times. Maya Singer: I will say, that I did get a very nice bouquet of flowers and a note from Zendaya, when I did my cover story on her. Chioma Nnadi: See. Chloe Malle: Oh, that's nice. Chioma Nnadi: Class act. Maya Singer: Class act. Chioma Nnadi: Not many people do that. Chloe Malle: No. Chioma Nnadi: Let me just say. [laughs]. Chloe Malle: Well, speaking of Zendaya- Chioma Nnadi: Yes. Chloe Malle: I think we wanted to segue to- Chioma Nnadi: Yeah. Chloe Malle: ... another topic that Chioma and I had been chatting about this week. Which was, it seemed like everyone on my Instagram was in Mumbai, last week. Chioma Nnadi: Yeah. Chloe Malle: And, there were two big events. Uh, Dior had their pre-Fall show at the Gateway to India. The enormous art sh-, uh, in Mumbai, on the waterfront. They had 850 guests. I mean, 850, that's a lot of people- Chioma Nnadi: That's huge. Chloe Malle: ... to have for your show. Maya Singer: Mm-hmm. Chloe Malle: That's big. And then, there's the, there's opening of this huge new cultural and art center, funded by Mukesh Ambani, who is the richest man in Asia. He has a, a bouquet of companies. But, uh, from petrochemical clothing, to telecommunications, to, just a whole array. And this is really, been spearheaded by his daughter, uh, Isha Ambani. And it's... opened with a fashion exhibition on the fashion of India that had been curated by Hamish Bowles and Patrick Kinmonth. And, they really pulled out all the stops. I mean- Chioma Nnadi: It was incredible to see, just, um, follow on my Instagram. Chloe Malle: Oh my God. Chioma Nnadi: [laughs]. Chloe Malle: It... I just ca-.... Just that the, the amount of money that must have been spent on this opening, just, it's like a pain in my stomach. Chioma Nnadi: [laughs]. Chloe Malle: But that's fine. Chioma Nnadi: [laughs]. Chloe Malle: Um, like- Chioma Nnadi: Handle the pain. Chloe Malle: [laughs]. But they, paid, I believe, or invited, um, a lot of Hollywood, Bollywood, fashion- Chioma Nnadi: Mm-hmm. Chloe Malle: ... insiders. And, what was striking to me, just on my Sunday morning scroll on my Instagram, was that everyone seemed to be really embracing Indian fashion. Chioma Nnadi: Mm. Chloe Malle: And, I, actually, you know, from my middle-aged white lady perspective. I was like, oh, everyone looks so pretty. But then I was like, huh. Is there any, eh... should we be thinking about this? Chioma Nnadi: [laughs]. Chloe Malle: We invited our friends and our colleague, Christian Allaire to chat with us about this. Senior Fashion Life and Style writer at Vogue. Christian Allaire: Hello. Chioma Nnadi: Yeah, I mean, Christian- Chloe Malle: First- Chioma Nnadi: What are your initial thoughts? Because we had a conversation earlier today, and you're actually, working on this piece. Christian Allaire: Mm. Well it's a tricky, right? Because you, obviously, as a guest, want to pay homage to the event you're attending. But, when it's a culture that's not your own, it can be very tricky to wear cultural clothing. Um, so I think Zendaya, actually, if we're gonna pick someone- Chioma Nnadi: Yeah. Christian Allaire: ... someone who did it right, did it the best way possible. She partnered with an Indian designer. His name's Rahul Mishra. Chioma Nnadi: Mm-hmm. Christian Allaire: Um, she's worn him before, in 2020. And so, she obviously picked someone who's of that culture, who can speak to the design elements, who knows what Indian fashion is. And, she really, just wanted to spotlight his work, and she kinda, let him shine. And, I believe she even walked the Red Carpet with him, so it took it one step further. Chioma Nnadi: Yeah. Christian Allaire: So I just thought that was a really classy way to do it. Chioma Nnadi: I think, M- Michelle Obama, was kind of, sort of set the standard for that idea of like, fashion diplomacy, where, where you... when you visit somewhere, you kinda, pay homage in some way. And she always, kind of... She never really, missed. I think she always did it correctly. But it is really, tricky territory. And I think the goal post, are continually moving. Christian Allaire: Mm. Chioma Nnadi: When I think about we was... We were talking about this, maybe, a decade ago, it would have been a completely different conversation. I mean, when you look, when you look at different cultural icons, you think the kind of pieces that Gwen Stefani or, you know, the bindi and- Christian Allaire: Mm. Chioma Nnadi: ... sarees, that were incorporated. And when you think of, uh, their le-, ray of light era, Madonna, wasn't she wearing, like, sarees- Christian Allaire: [laughs]. Chioma Nnadi: ... and you know- Christian Allaire: Mm-hmm. Chloe Malle: Yeah. Chioma Nnadi: I think, it was- Chloe Malle: [Alka-cai 00:15:55]. Chioma Nnadi: You know, I think this is something we talk about often. And you, you're, you're in the process of collecting a lot of culturally inappropriate pieces- Christian Allaire: Mm-hmm. [laughs]. Chioma Nnadi: ... because you feel that, they should be owned by people of that culture. Christian Allaire: Mm-hmm. Chioma Nnadi: And you know, I do the same. I have a, a, a Blackamoor here, that's from the 1800s- Christian Allaire: Mm-hmm. Chioma Nnadi: ... and I, you know, I feel strongly that I shouldn't be, own this. Christian Allaire: Mm-hmm Chioma Nnadi: You know, it shouldn't be in the hands of someone who would misappropriate it. Chloe Malle: Chioma, can you explain to us what Blackamoor rings are? Chioma Nnadi: Yeah. Chloe Malle: That you have, that- Chioma Nnadi: They're basically... I mean, the one I'm wearing now, is a cameo ring, so it is a depiction of a, of a Black woman, uh, on a cameo. Um, so, I love cameo rings. But, obviously, seeing yourself, is so... it just make it extra special. And I have another one that's, has like, tiny diamonds around it. And this one, is actually, engraved with a woman's name, who I'm sure is not Black, Elizabeth. Chloe Malle: Hm. Chioma Nnadi: Um, and it's like, it, it's... I've worn it so much that the, the date has worn off, but, I think it was 1887. Chloe Malle: Wow. Chioma Nnadi: I wear it all the time, and it has a lot of meaning for me. Um, yeah. Chloe Malle: Has anyone ever commented on it? Chioma Nnadi: Yeah, Rihanna. [laughs]. Chloe Malle: [laughs]. Oh, my God, casual. Christian Allaire: [laughs]. Chioma Nnadi: Yeah, people have comment... I mean, if you... I think she, also, has a, a, attraction to cameos. I think she created them for her Fenty line that she did with LVMH. Um, but yeah, I mean, the one I'm wearing, I wouldn't say is a problematic depiction. There are some, in which, woman are, women and men are depicted as servants. I don't buy those pieces. I don't... I have a piece, actually, at home, that was a... that does have that. That was one I'd collected, but I don't wear. Christian Allaire: You know, I'm from an indigenous background, not an Indian background. But, um, I do know the market is flooded with so many inappropriate things that designers have, obviously, drawn from indigenous heritage, but then, completely made it their own, without credit. And so, the vintage market is flooded with these things. I tell you, there's endless amounts. And so, I always see them, and I'm like, who's gonna buy this? And, will they know that it's insanely racist, what they're buying. Chioma Nnadi: Mm-hmm. Christian Allaire: So I'm like, I just, kind of, just started collecting for fun. I was like, well, I guess I'll buy it. You know, 'cause I see these things sitting there. And it's kinda, become a hobby, and it... I don't even know what my intention is, with these pieces. I don't really have a goal. I just don't want someone to wear them, who shouldn't be. [laughs]. And so, maybe, it's like an art gallery, down the line. Or, I don't know, but it's just, I feel like the sense of responsibility to take these garments off the market. [laughs]. Chioma Nnadi: Mm. Chloe Malle: Interesting. Christian Allaire: Mm-hmm. Chloe Malle: Well, I mean, it's also a question of, I mean, in terms of making clothing, as opposed to just, wearing clothing, like, GGM, Zendaya. How does Dior do it right? How does Dior do this fashion show in India, celebrating- Christian Allaire: Mm-hmm. Chloe Malle: ... Indian culture and fashion, but also, being a French heritage brand? Chioma Nnadi: It's a very delicate balance. I mean, I think what happened with Dior, I think, uh, Maria Grazia had, had, been having conversations and have been using embroideries of men- Chloe Malle: The designer of Dior- Chioma Nnadi: My bad. Chloe Malle: ... for your [inaudible 00:18:51] story. [laughs]. Chioma Nnadi: Sorry. N- not that everyone knows- Christian Allaire: Mm. Chioma Nnadi: Um, I think she had, had established a relationship with a, with a community of embroiderers. And actually, embroidery in India, is, is usually something that men do. And I think she'd helped support a, a female only, um, embroidery collective. Christian Allaire: Mm-hmm. Chioma Nnadi: So it was something that was, she'd already... I think this is a conversation that she had already started, over the years. And so, I think you see that there's intention. And, you see that there's a commitment to supporting, beyond, just coming in, in a whirlwind, and leaving. Right. Because, you know, that just feels... it just feels irresponsible. Um, and I think, you know, there are various ways in the collection... she used certain colors. I mean, you can pick apart and you can unpack all of it. Chloe Malle: I was reading someone was writing about this, and saying that the more you know about a culture, and the more you endeavor to educate yourself about, wh- whatever the culture is, the, the art that you're working with, the more you know, the better off you're gonna be doing this. Chioma Nnadi: Mm. Chloe Malle: So, it's in a way, it's a great encouragement for people to learn as much as they can, about other cultures and about other places that are not their own. Christian Allaire: Yeah, I think the House made a really, like, deliberate decisions to do that, too. I inter-, I interviewed Freida Pinto, who was a guest at the Dior show. And she was telling me how Dior invited some of the guests to the, ateliers, where, um, I think it's called Chanakya ateliers, where Dior worked with, are these artists, to make the collection. Like, Indian artists. And they invited their guests to come visit with them, see how certain pieces were made. And I thought that was a really, kind of, classy touch, to do- Chioma Nnadi: Yeah. Christian Allaire: ... before the show. Chioma Nnadi: Yeah, for sure. Chloe Malle: All right. Thank you, guys. Chioma Nnadi: Thank you. Christian Allaire: Thank you. Chioma Nnadi: Thank you. Chloe Malle: And Maya had some fun. So excited to have you back from Stormy. [laughs]. Maya Singer: Yes. Speaker 5: The Run-Through will be back in just a moment. Chioma Nnadi: This is, The Run-Through. I'm Chioma Nnadi. Chloe Malle: And I'm Chloe Malle. There's a new book out this week, called Euphoria Fashion, and it's by stylist and costume designer, Heidi Bivens. Chioma Nnadi: Yeah, and I've been, kind of, devouring it. It's really cool, if you're, if you're into the show, which I am. Chloe Malle: You're a real Euphoria's fan. Chioma Nnadi: I'm a real Euphoria's fan. And it's just, the way it's done, is kind of, unconventional. Chloe Malle: Yeah, it's fun. Chioma Nnadi: And yeah, you get all these wonderful, kind of anecdotes, from the, from the show, that you might not have know about, specific pieces in this. So, so there's lots of things to nerd out about. Chloe Malle: The looks really became character in themselves. They- Chioma Nnadi: Exactly. Chloe Malle: ... inspired a lot of memes, a lot of internet discussion. Chioma Nnadi: Exactly. Chloe Malle: Um, you know, the show is about teenage excess drug use. And, the style, really, crystallizes a lot of, uh, what's going on there. Chioma Nnadi: It does. And, fun fact, um, Heidi used to work at Vogue as Sitting Editor, for a decade. Chloe Malle: It's true. When I edited the flash section, she did quite a few stories for me. Chioma Nnadi: She does styling for Chanel. She's done, you know, she's done projects for WWD, Paper Magazine. Chloe Malle: We talked to her just before the release of the book. Welcome, Heidi. Chioma Nnadi: Welcome. Heidi Bivens: Thank you. Thank you. Chloe Malle: We're so excited to have you, and- Heidi Bivens: I'm so excited to be here. Chloe Malle: Will you, just introduce yourself to us? Heidi Bivens: Yes. My name is Heidi Bivens, and I'm a Stylist and a Costume Designer, and most recently, Producer. And I've started directing- Chloe Malle: Oh, wow. Heidi Bivens: And, I used to be a Sittings Editor for Vogue- Chioma Nnadi: Yeah. Heidi Bivens: ... for many years. Chloe Malle: Someone just reminded me of that- Heidi Bivens: Yeah, for m- Chloe Malle: ... this morning. Heidi Bivens: ... for many years, um, over 10 years. Chloe Malle: Do you remember, like, your favorite Vogue shoot? Heidi Bivens: I remember doing some first shoots for people. Like, Alex Wang's first shoot- Chioma Nnadi: Really? Heidi Bivens: ... for the magazine. Yeah. Chloe Malle: Oh, funny. Excellent. And now, you have a book. You're also- Heidi Bivens: Mm-hmm. Chloe Malle: ... an author. Chioma Nnadi: Yeah, the books amazing. I love it. Heidi Bivens: Thank you. Chioma Nnadi: I'm a big fan of the show. Heidi Bivens: Thank you, thank you. Chioma Nnadi: Yeah. Heidi Bivens: Uh, the book's exciting for me, because I can't remember having seen a book that explores costume designer's process, in this way. Chioma Nnadi: Mm-hmm. Chloe Malle: Yeah. So, the book is called, Euphoria Fashion. Heidi Bivens: Mm-hmm. Chloe Malle: It's a pretty direct title. [laughs]. Heidi Bivens: Yes. They wanted to call it, Euphoria Fashion, the Art of Costume Design, and I asked them to make it feel- Chioma Nnadi: No, it doesn't feel right- Heidi Bivens: Yeah. Chioma Nnadi: Yeah. Heidi Bivens: [laughs]. I was like, just Euphoria Fashion. Chioma Nnadi: Yeah. Heidi Bivens: I go- Chloe Malle: [laughs] Heidi Bivens: ... that's enough. Chloe Malle: And how long has this been in the making? Heidi Bivens: Uh, we worked on it for a year. Chloe Malle: Okay. Heidi Bivens: A good year. Yeah. It was a, a lengthy process. And, um, you know, my first book, so it was a- Chioma Nnadi: Mm. Heidi Bivens: ... learning curve. Um, we also had other writers contribute, and- Chloe Malle: I know, our very one, Jose Criales-Unzueta- Heidi Bivens: Yes, yes. Chloe Malle: ... wrote an amazing essay on camp and queerness- Heidi Bivens: Mm-hmm. Chloe Malle: ... in Euphoria. Heidi Bivens: Yes. Chioma Nnadi: Did you have any sense, when you were, sort of, presented the project- Heidi Bivens: Mm-hmm. Chioma Nnadi: ... that it would become such a cult- Heidi Bivens: No. [laughs]. Chioma Nnadi: ... thing? Heidi Bivens: No. Not at all. Um, I really didn't have that kind of foresight. I told a story before, about how, when I first got the pilot script sending it to Gen Z friends, or even Millennial friends, because I'm X, um, to ask them, like, is this cool? Chioma Nnadi: [laughs]. Heidi Bivens: Like, should I, should I do this? Is it, like- Chloe Malle: [laughs]. Heidi Bivens: And all of them said, yes, absolutely. And, and I'm glad I did. I mean, I was excited to try TV, because there's this, you know- Chloe Malle: Was that your first TV? Heidi Bivens: Yeah, that was my first TV gig. Chloe Malle: Interesting. Chioma Nnadi: Mm. Heidi Bivens: And you know, I'm used to, you know, working on films where I get, like, five weeks, maybe six weeks prep, and then we're shooting for, like, maybe six weeks, or so. It's not like this huge, like, big budget Marvel movies, or anything like that, smaller scale film. So, I usually have such a truncated time to, design the character from the time I'm hired, you know, design the characters, do the fittings, and then they're establishing, you know, on, on, camera, and then, then that's it, there's nothing I can do beyond that. But with, television, you have this long run. Euphoria shoots, like eight months. Yeah. Chioma Nnadi: Yeah. Chloe Malle: And you get to the know characters, better, right? Heidi Bivens: Mm-hmm. And there's an, second season, and now a third season. So yeah, there's this opportunity to, really develop the characters in a different way, than I would with a shorter format project. Chloe Malle: Heidi, I'm always curious what the collaboration process is like, with the actor. Um, ah, I love that in the book, I think it's Arianne Philips who says that, uh, the costume designer's the only member of the crew who sees the actor in their underwear. Um, so obviously, it depends on the person. But how does that, relationship and collaboration, shift from person to person? Heidi Bivens: The costume fittings, are usually the first place the actors come, after, you know, of course, they've met with the director and they've met the producers, they've read the script, obviously. But, a lot of times, depending on how busy the actor is, or how invested they are, in helping develop or create the character, sometimes they come into the fitting, and you know, unless there's some anecdotal th- thing about their character written into the script, they don't have any idea o- of the backstory. And I've cre-, had to create the backstory, regardless of it's there or not? Chloe Malle: Really? Heidi Bivens: Yeah. To be able to choose the costumes and, and believe it, for it to feel authentic, for me. Chloe Malle: What if you and- Heidi Bivens: Mm-hmm. Chloe Malle: ... Zendaya arrive- Heidi Bivens: Mm-hmm. Chloe Malle: And she has a totally different backstory for Rue, than you did? Heidi Bivens: Mm-hmm. Then, I go with her backstory. Chloe Malle: Okay. Heidi Bivens: Unless, you know, she wants to talk about it. And then, it becomes like a, sort of, mash up of- Chloe Malle: A hybrid. Heidi Bivens: ... our ideas. Yeah. Yeah, but, you know, it, it's usually, like a personality type. There's, um... I find actors who, just want to be told what to wear, and they want to let you do your job. And then, there's, there's others who really enjoy the process of collaborating with costumes, and they're full of ideas. Chloe Malle: Yeah. I heard that Sidney Sweeney, like, does a, a scrapbook for every character. Did you experience- Heidi Bivens: I didn't get a scrapbook from Sidney, for Euphoria. Chloe Malle: Okay. Heidi Bivens: Uh, but she, but she, definitely, was extremely inf- informative. So, she would come with ideas that I hadn't thought of, that made me look way better, as [laughs]... I just got- Chloe Malle: Just give, one or two example of that. Heidi Bivens: Yeah. Um, I tell a story in the book, about a scene that was shot for the second season. It was one of the last episodes. It's when Cassie walks down the hallway with Nate. And, uh, I say, it kinda, represents her absolution. Uh, it's, uh... Then, you've got Kat and Maddie, standing by the lockers, like, saying, she fits the part. So, she's walking down the hallway with Nate, and she eh, eh, there's something about her, that's supposed to not look completely right. So I had a, a costume picked out, which was more tame than the one that we ended up going with. And, Sidney called me, uh, when, you know, they were getting ready to shoot and, and said, like, I have another idea, and pitched me an idea. And- Chloe Malle: Mm-hmm. Heidi Bivens: In that way- Chloe Malle: What was the final outfit? Heidi Bivens: It's like a, hot pink mohair, sort of- Chloe Malle: Oh, wow. Chioma Nnadi: Oh, I remember it. Heidi Bivens: ... crop top. And then, uh, and then, uh- Chioma Nnadi: I remember it. Heidi Bivens: ... a pink skirt. And then she's got, like, a little Balenciaga bag. [laughs]. Chioma Nnadi: I mean, the way the... her character developed- Heidi Bivens: Mm-hmm. Chioma Nnadi: ... in season two, it was so, like- Heidi Bivens: Mm-hmm. Chioma Nnadi: It was so in tandem with her... Her outfits told the story. Almost, knew here state of mind. Heidi Bivens: Mm-hmm. Chioma Nnadi: By looking at what she was wearing, because she was completely unraveling. If I didn't know that you styled the show, I would imagine someone with a, with a very strong fashion background, style the show, because- Heidi Bivens: Mm-hmm. Chioma Nnadi: You know, you had designers that were so young and up and coming. I know you put Lou Dallas, like, Hunter wanted, nu-, Lou Dallas in it. Heidi Bivens: Mm-hmm. And Raffaella Hanley. Chioma Nnadi: Yeah. Heidi Bivens: She... Yeah. Chioma Nnadi: Raffaella Hanley, young designer, who was part of the CVFF, which is the CFDA Vogue Fashion Fund. Very, New York, very... I mean, very independent. Very young. Heidi Bivens: Mm-hmm. Chioma Nnadi: So, there was this instant recognition of all these, Indie designers. And even, I just think there was more fashion forward looks on the show. Like- Heidi Bivens: Mm-hmm. Chioma Nnadi: You don't normally see, like, a Balenciaga bag, in a, all the latest things. Heidi Bivens: Mm-hmm. Chioma Nnadi: You know, wi- Heidi Bivens: Now, you will. Chioma Nnadi: Yeah. Heidi Bivens: [laughs]. Chioma Nnadi: And I know that you wanted the character... I mean, what were, what was the decision-making behind it? Because I know there was also- Heidi Bivens: Mm-hmm. Chioma Nnadi: ... some things, where you didn't want... You wanted the characters to be able to... It wouldn't be something they would be able to buy, or- Heidi Bivens: Mm-hmm. That, definitely, was, um, first Season, I, I was more method about it. Chioma Nnadi: Mm-hmm. Heidi Bivens: Where I wanted to make sure that, I wasn't pulling the audience out of the story- Chioma Nnadi: Right. Heidi Bivens: Where they were, like, being able to call out what they knew, like, what everything was- Chloe Malle: Like, this be a new thing- Heidi Bivens: Yes. Chloe Malle: .... with them, right? Heidi Bivens: Exactly. Um, I was trying to stump people, actually. And I was using a lot of vintage, and I was pulling from costume houses, and- Chloe Malle: Right. Heidi Bivens: There's massive costume houses in Los Angeles, for every studio. Universal, Warner Brothers, ABC. Like, they all have these gigantic- Chloe Malle: They're amazing. Heidi Bivens: ... gigantic costume houses. And, it just happened that, like, the '90s section, and definitely, like, the early 2000s section, hadn't been picked over a lot, because it was like, right before- Chioma Nnadi: Mm-hmm. Heidi Bivens: ... it hit, and I knew it was coming, because it's all cyclical, right. And, there weren't any projects shooting at the time, for those decades. Chioma Nnadi: Hm. Heidi Bivens: Or, for those time periods. So, um, I just got really lucky and, like, it was like a smorgasbord, of, [laughs]- Chioma Nnadi: [laughs]. Heidi Bivens: ... fashion, that, you know, was, uh, s-, uh, at my, at my fingertips. So, you know, when it came time to, to shoot the show, I knew I had an opportunity to put fashion on television that wouldn't normally be seen. Chloe Malle: Mm. Heidi Bivens: So, I was, like, looking for, like, things that felt nostalgic to me. But then also, like, smaller brands, for like, people who are making clothes in their bedrooms, like, all over. Chioma Nnadi: Mm-hmm. Heidi Bivens: But then, also, you know, supporting the big brands. Chloe Malle: How do you find those people? Heidi Bivens: Instagram. Chloe Malle: Okay. Heidi Bivens: Yeah. Yeah. Chloe Malle: Interesting. Heidi Bivens: The deep dive. I guess, it's like- Chloe Malle: [laughs]. Heidi Bivens: ... scroll, forever. Chloe Malle: And then you just, DM people, and be like, I want this for Euphoria? Heidi Bivens: Yeah. Chloe Malle: People must think they're being punked. Heidi Bivens: First season, I got a great response from designers, because Zendaya was attached, you know, o- obviously, from the beginning. And, you know, she is a known actress. But al to of the other cast members, so it's like their first big breakout thing. Chloe Malle: Mm. Heidi Bivens: So, it, you know, it took a minute. But then, by second season, it was pretty easy. Chloe Malle: In the book you talk about how Zendaya came in, first, for a fitting, wearing the Converse that she wore, the Chuck Taylor's- Heidi Bivens: Mm-hmm. Chloe Malle: ... from Spider-Man. Like, how much of an actor's personal style, or personal clothes, lead into their character? Heidi Bivens: Yeah, when I first met Zendaya, she was wearing just like a white tank top and jean. And I wasn't that familiar with her, Red Carpet style, at the time. Which is probably a good thing that I, kinda- Chloe Malle: Mm-hmm. Heidi Bivens: You know, for me she was, like, kind of a blank slate, in that way. I, I knew pretty quickly, that, uh... especially because, Rue is, is loosely inspired by Sam Levinson's own story. Chloe Malle: Mm-hmm. Heidi Bivens: I- Chloe Malle: Sam Levinson is the creator- Heidi Bivens: Mm-hmm. The writer- Chloe Malle: ... of the show. Heidi Bivens: ... show runner, creator, director- Chloe Malle: Mm-hmm. Heidi Bivens: ... of, of everything. But, yeah, I came up with style rules for Rue, pretty quickly. Chloe Malle: Okay. Heidi Bivens: Uh, I, I tend to do that- Chloe Malle: What's an example of, what are style rules? Heidi Bivens: Um, like, you know, it's like what we do in our life. Like, oh, I only wear black. Or, um, I'd never wear V-neck. Or, I, you know, like, I, like, would never wear a skirt above this length. Or, whatever it is- Chloe Malle: Okay. Heidi Bivens: You know, we all have these, sort of, like, rules for ourselves, that we follow. Uh, in general- Chloe Malle: Do you write those down, for each character? Heidi Bivens: Yeah. I usually create, like a, what I'd call, like a bible for our costume department. Chloe Malle: Okay. Heidi Bivens: So that anyone coming in, to like, shop for the show, or anyone I'm hiring to be part of the crew, would have a window, into like, what I'm, what I'm imagining. But like, for Rue, for example, like, I knew should, like, never wear a skirt. Chloe Malle: Mm-hmm. Heidi Bivens: Or, we're never gonna see her in heels. [laughs]. And then, with the Converse, there were other shoes that we used for a season. But then, those just, we just kept going back to those. And then at one point, I think we just decided, these are just gonna be, like, the shoe. You know, that was something Zendaya brought to the character. Also, the rings- Chloe Malle: Mm. Heidi Bivens: ... that Rue wears. Chloe Malle: Are Zendaya's personal rings? Heidi Bivens: Mm-hmm. Chloe Malle: Right? Heidi Bivens: Yeah. Chloe Malle: When is Euphoria, season three, filming? Heidi Bivens: We start shooting in June. Chloe Malle: Okay. Heidi Bivens: So, probably, May. So, very, very soon. Chloe Malle: And, where? Heidi Bivens: In Los Angeles. Chloe Malle: Okay. And does, like, Sam Levinson, ever give you feedback, or like, are you, sort of, getting incoming- Heidi Bivens: Mm-hmm. Chloe Malle: ... constructive criticism from other members- Heidi Bivens: Mm-hmm. Chloe Malle: ... of the creative team? Heidi Bivens: Sam is a joy to work with. He, enables me to be my best, I say. Chloe Malle: Mm. Heidi Bivens: Because, he doesn't micromanage. Chloe Malle: Okay. Heidi Bivens: So, you know, if he has a distinct idea about something, and I g-, and I get it wrong, he's gonna let me know. But, uh, you know, he's, you know, written into scripts, where there would be some description of costume, he'll say, let Heidi do her thing. Chloe Malle: [laughs]. Heidi Bivens: So, you know- Chioma Nnadi: Oh- Heidi Bivens: He, really, does give me so much creative license, which I'm extremely thankful for, and always will be. Uh, but they're, you know, there has been times where, you know, I've gotten things, I would say, wrong. Um, there was, there was, [laughs]- Chloe Malle: What's an example of that? Heidi Bivens: There was one time, um, on, during s-, the Jules special episode, where, um, hair and make-up departments and myself, thought that Jules was, like, coming back from going out, to like, a nightclub or something. I don't know, we just... that's how we read into it. And I do this thing, where I create a deck every week, of the costumes that are coming up, and I circulate it, so that everyone can see what I planned. Chloe Malle: Mm. Heidi Bivens: And then, yeah, like, Sam was like, no, she just needs to be, like, in, like her underwear, with like, no hair and make-up done. [laughs]. Really, like... And we're like, oh, okay. Like- Chloe Malle: [laughs]. Heidi Bivens: It was all moving so fast. Chioma Nnadi: It's so interesting, because I feel like, all of the characters now, uh, their off-screen lives, they've become fashion icons. I think about Hunter Schafer, and Hunter was a model before she was an, was an actor. What was it like working with, her being a model before? Did she have a lot of opinions about what she wanted to wear? Did she have a... I'm quite, sort of, curious. Heidi Bivens: Yeah. I mean, Hunter's the best. She was so respectful in the beginning. And I mean, always has been. But, from the beginning, I think because she was coming in and that was, like, her, probably, her first real acting gig- Chioma Nnadi: Mm. Heidi Bivens: ... of that level. Um, she, you know, really, like, leaned on me, to help define the character. Uh, but at the same time, because she is such a creative in her own right, and has like, a- amazing ideas, she did moodboard for me. Chloe Malle: Oh, wow. Chioma Nnadi: Mm. Heidi Bivens: I still have her moodboards. I shared them with, uh, the students at Poly-Moto, when- Chioma Nnadi: Oh, what was on them? Heidi Bivens: ... going to the... Um, there's uh, a lot of anime references. Chioma Nnadi: Mm-hmm. Chloe Malle: Mm-hmm. Heidi Bivens: And, uh, as- Chioma Nnadi: She likes the Sailer Moon. Heidi Bivens: Yes, definitely. That, she'll... I mean, I think Hunter, for sure, grew up on anime and still is, is a big lover of, of all of that. So, uh, Manga, and Anime- Chioma Nnadi: Mm-hmm. Heidi Bivens: And, referencing that. Chloe Malle: I want to know if you have any thrifting secrets? Because- Chioma Nnadi: Oh, yes. Chloe Malle: ... so much of Euphoria clothes are thrifted. Heidi Bivens: Yeah, online. I mean, really- Chloe Malle: Oh, really? Heidi Bivens: It's like that's- Chioma Nnadi: Mm. Heidi Bivens: ... you know, where I'll find- Chloe Malle: Depop or Ebay, or- Heidi Bivens: Yeah. All, all of 'em. Chloe Malle: Okay. Heidi Bivens: All of 'em. I think the cutest, is when like, I've bought an item from a vendor, like on Ebay, or Depop and they'll figure out that I've put it on the show, somehow. Chloe Malle: Oh, my gosh. Chioma Nnadi: Oh, wow. Chloe Malle: There we go. Heidi Bivens: Or, or that, like, you know, that I bought it for the show. Chloe Malle: Yeah. Heidi Bivens: And, you know, 'cause sometimes I'll, just to get them to expedite shipping, I'll have to say, like, I'm... need this for a fitting for, you know, an actor. I don't, and you know- Chloe Malle: Yeah. Heidi Bivens: I don't tell them, like, what it's for. But, there's been a couple of occasions, where they've figured it out and then, like, handwritten me letters. Chloe Malle: Awe. Heidi Bivens: And then, like, you know- Chioma Nnadi: I love that. Heidi Bivens: And, and there was one, um, girl, of, in Ireland, who I bought a blue-marine cardigan- Chloe Malle: [laughs]. Heidi Bivens: ... for, who... and I put it on Alexa, to me, as Maddie, and- Chioma Nnadi: So perfect. [laughs]. Heidi Bivens: I knew... I had met that girl before. She had, uh... I had met her when she lived in the states. Like, and she... So, we were actually- Chloe Malle: That Irish director? Heidi Bivens: Yes! Chioma Nnadi: No way. Heidi Bivens: Yes. And so, we reconnected in that way. And then, you know, I've had, um, other vendors, like, once they've figured out, say, like, you know, carte blanche, like you can... We'll send you e-, anything, every-, you know. So, it's, it's fun to make those, those connections with people. And then, there's, you know, there's vendors like, Aralda Vintage brand. Chioma Nnadi: Yes. I love Aralda. Heidi Bivens: Bren, at Aralda, does an amazing job. Chioma Nnadi: Yeah. Chloe Malle: Never heard of him. Heidi Bivens: Uh- Chioma Nnadi: In LA. Chloe Malle: Okay. Heidi Bivens: In LA. Chloe Malle: Okay. Heidi Bivens: But- Chioma Nnadi: Where do you like to shop for yourself? Heidi Bivens: I don't shop a lot. Chioma Nnadi: Really? Heidi Bivens: I have a closet full of clothes. Chioma Nnadi: Mm. Heidi Bivens: So, I'm really trying to be sustainable, in that way. Chioma Nnadi: Mm. Heidi Bivens: Where, I'm like, going shopping in my closet. Chioma Nnadi: Mm. Heidi Bivens: And, um, I will buy a couple new things, per season, and wear 'em into the ground. But I think, you know, long-gone are the days where I feel like I need a different outfit- Chloe Malle: Right. Heidi Bivens: ... for 30 days, for a month. And then, [laughs], sort of- Chioma Nnadi: I know. Heidi Bivens: And then, it's like, I, honestly, like- Chioma Nnadi: It's so, uh, li- liberating to me- Heidi Bivens: Yeah. Chioma Nnadi: To be able to be, like, I'm not doing that. Heidi Bivens: Yeah. Chloe Malle: Heidi, thank you so much. Thank you for- Chioma Nnadi: Yeah, thank you so much. Chloe Malle: ... making a big commute. Chioma Nnadi: This is great. Heidi Bivens: Thanks. Well, uh- Chioma Nnadi: Yeah, we appreciate it. Heidi Bivens: ... I'm so excited to be here, back in the building. Chloe Malle: Yeah. Heidi Bivens: And, lovely to talk with you. And you give great, radio voice. Chloe Malle: Oh, oh, yeah. Heidi Bivens: Thank you so much. [laughs]. Chloe Malle: We love to hear it. Chioma Nnadi: So do you. Chloe Malle: Yeah. [laughs]. Heidi Bivens: Thank you. [laughs]. Chloe Malle: Chioma, before we go, remember when I visited Deeda Blair, at her apartment? Chioma Nnadi: I do, it sounded epic. Chloe Malle: Ah, Deeda Blair is a fashion icon and a legendary hostess, and philanthropist, and she's known for her, sort of, ice white, Cruella-esq, sculptural bouffant. Chioma Nnadi: [laughs]. Chloe Malle: She is one of the great muses of Mary-Kate and Ashley Olsen. She's an epic couture collector, for the last half century. And she, actually had a book that came out a few months ago, about her life, and her fundraising efforts. She is 91. Book is called Deeda Blair: Food, Flowers & Fantasy. It's, sort of, a very creative and fun approach to a coffee table book on, e- every, sort of, delightful thing about living a glamorous life. It's- Chioma Nnadi: I'm a terrible host. I think I could use this book. Chloe Malle: Yes. The way... I mean, the recipes are incredible. And she, sort of, sets up fantasy dinner parties at different places she's visited- Chioma Nnadi: Oh, I love that. Chloe Malle: ... with here favorite recipes. So, it, it's really fun. She said she never wanted to write a book, but she makes these beautiful leather-bound scrapbooks, where she tears recipes, photographs, magazine old stories, and sticks them together. And, all of her friends who would come over and see them, were like, you have to make this into something that's actually published. So, uh, all of the proceeds are going to the Deeda Blair Foundation for Disorders of the Brain. And, she's a very impressive medical fundraiser for different causes that she's get very, in the weeds, about. And, uh, she invited me and one of our engineers, Jen Nelson, to her home, to chat about everything. Chioma Nnadi: Mm. Excited, to hear more. Chloe Malle: Deeda, your living room is quieter than the Conde Nast recording studios. [laughs]. This is where every podcast should be recorded. Deeda Blair: Well, first of all, I've never heard of that podcast. I've certainly, never done one. Chloe Malle: [laughs]. Deeda Blair: I didn't grow up in a computer age. Chloe Malle: No, I, I'm... Yeah. Deeda Blair: And, I, rather like, quiet and silence. But, I know I'm missing things. Chloe Malle: You are, and you aren't. [laughs]. I noticed that there is no dining room in this, in this apartment. Deeda Blair: Well that used to be. And- Chloe Malle: Oh, wow. Deeda Blair: That was transformed- Chloe Malle: Now, it's the library. Deeda Blair: ... into... It's actually a square library, and I covered over, or Danielle... Well, Marcus did the architecture for it, uh, covered over two windows. Chloe Malle: Oh, wow. Deeda Blair: Over all of these, square. It was just an idea of mine. You don't notice it, because so many things going on with the books. Chloe Malle: Mm-hmm. Deeda Blair: And, we have lunch, usually, there, when it's not covered by book stuff. Chloe Malle: Mm-hmm. Deeda Blair: I think I would offend the world, if I were to say, I really don't like dining rooms. Chloe Malle: Is this the library, where you keep the, the scrapbooks that inspired the book? Deeda Blair: These are the scrapbooks. These weigh so much- Chloe Malle: Oh, my God, they're gorgeous. Deeda Blair: ... and they're [inaudible 00:41:05] book. Chloe Malle: Your scrapbooks... Well, I mean, I noticed that you have... there's, sort of recurring motifs throughout. I, I noticed the foyer, the wallpaper that's covered. Is that hand-painted, or is wallpaper? Deeda Blair: No, it's wallpaper. Chloe Malle: Is that repeated in your scrapbooks? I noticed it's in the book. Deeda Blair: Yes. My husband adored Venice. We both adored a swim, uh, and that, kind of thing. And so, we went to Venice every year. And I collected Venetian and, and also in Florence, and in Milan, papers. Chloe Malle: Any proceeds from the book, are going to the Deeda Blair- Deeda Blair: Yes. Chloe Malle: Wh- what is it about, Deeda? Deeda Blair: It's called the Deed Ber- Blair Research Initiative for Disorders of the Brain. Chloe Malle: You seem to be ahead of the curve on everything. Because now, there is a renewed, or a, first focus, nationally, on mental health. But it ha-, there hasn't been for a long time. Um- Deeda Blair: Exactly. Chloe Malle: Does it feel, like a relief to you, that now, this is becoming a focus? Or, is it frustrating that its taken so long? Deeda Blair: It has taken so long. Chloe Malle: Because your son, also suffered from- Deeda Blair: Yes, my son was bipolar. And, we knew he was going to have mental illness problems, uh, when he was in prep school. And, he watched... And I use the word, hopelessness. He felt bad, about his life. And, um, my husband and my son, were wonderfully, close. And we would both try to talk to him, during a period where the depression had hit. And, it was, it was not to be. It was impenetrable. Chloe Malle: Mm. Deeda Blair: In terms of talking about it. And, manic stages were, you know, unexpected. We didn't always see all of those. Chloe Malle: Mm-hmm. Deeda Blair: Uh, as a family, where it's, sort of, hard on you. My husband and I had lunch, unless one of us was traveling, every day, and all of- Chloe Malle: Really? Deeda Blair: ... 40, of the 53 years marriage. Chloe Malle: Wow. He would come home from wherever, uh, whatever office he was? Deeda Blair: It started with the Embassy in Copenhagen. Chloe Malle: That was his first ambassadorship? Deeda Blair: Yeah. Chloe Malle: Wow. Deeda Blair: And, he would come with about nine, there. Um- Chloe Malle: In your ice blue Balenciaga. Deeda Blair: [laughs]. Chloe Malle: [laughs]. Deeda Blair: The bluebirds. Chloe Malle: [laughs]. Deeda Blair: Uh, these lunches were practical. Filled with schedules and planning. Chloe Malle: Mm-hmm. Deeda Blair: Guest lists. Uh, there was a tremendous amount of entertaining. Chloe Malle: I read about your movie nights, and- Deeda Blair: The movie nights were the best. Chloe Malle: Will you tell me a little bit about those? Deeda Blair: Well, both of us were movie addicts. Chloe Malle: Mm. Deeda Blair: A large part of courtship was spent going to the movies. He arranged, for my birthday, every... He had some connections in the world of Hollywood. Because, my husband was very important in the campaigns of Adlai Stevenson. Chloe Malle: Mm-hmm. Deeda Blair: And, um, Lauren Bacall had an enormous crush on Adlai Stevenson- Chloe Malle: [laughs]. Deeda Blair: And so, it spread, and spread, and then, you know, his friendship Mary Lasker, was another branch of the movie world. So he was able to get James Bond movies, every year- Chloe Malle: [laughs]. Deeda Blair: [inaudible 00:45:42]- Chloe Malle: Was this Sean Connery days? Deeda Blair: Sean Connery, the next one. Chloe Malle: Roger Moore? Deeda Blair: Roger Moore. Chloe Malle: If you could travel to Paris now, for the couture shows, I know you used to go twice a year? Or are you wearing less... are you dressing up less, these days? Deeda Blair: I'm dressing up less, and I have no problem wearing clothes I've had for many, many, many years. And, uh, yes, the more flowers, evening dresses, have been given, for the most part, to the Met, and other museums, Chicago history. Chloe Malle: Do you ever regret that? Is there ever- Deeda Blair: Oh, yes. Chloe Malle: [laughs]. Deeda Blair: They're, definite regrets. Definite. Chloe Malle: Because no one's wearing them at the museums. [laughs]. Deeda Blair: No. But, I had to feel, I can't live without it. Chloe Malle: Mm. Deeda Blair: And, I had to feel, be happy, wearing it for 8 years, 10 years. They're four Chanel suits, that when I start going to some book party lunches. Chloe Malle: Mm-hmm. Deeda Blair: They would come out of the closet. And, I, I didn't buy a lot. Maybe, two things a season. Chloe Malle: Mm-hmm. Deeda Blair: And I had done it for so long, I had what they called a pre-de jour fee. [laughs]. Chloe Malle: [laughs]. Deeda Blair: And that started, when I first started. Chloe Malle: A price of a young girl. Do you still follow fashion, the way you, you wanted? I mean, do you look at photographs of the shows, every season? Or- Deeda Blair: Yeah. I look at the videos of the couture. Chloe Malle: Balenciaga's not quite what it was. Deeda Blair: It's different. Chloe Malle: Yes. [laughs]. Deeda Blair: I've seen some things were great. And things that, I think Balenciaga, would be horrified over. Chloe Malle: [laughs]. Deeda Blair: But I think it's imaginative. Chloe Malle: Well this was a treat to speak to you. Deeda Blair: You... I loved meeting you both. Chloe Malle: It was such a treat to talk to Deeda. And I found it amazing that she has given a lot of the formal gowns she used to wear, to the Met and other museums. Chioma Nnadi: Oh, yeah. That's right. I've heard that she has some in the Met. And, I'm actually going to take a look at one, next week. I think it might be one of hers. It's a couture- Chloe Malle: Oh, in the upcoming, in the- Chioma Nnadi: Yes. Chloe Malle: ... Karl Lagerfeld exhibit. Chioma Nnadi: Yes, it's Ch- Chloe Malle: Ah. Chioma Nnadi: ... a Chanel piece from the '90s. Chloe Malle: Wow. Chioma Nnadi: Couture. That's it for this episode of The Run-Through. Thanks for listening. The Run-Through at Vogue, is a production of Conde Nast Entertainment. Chloe Malle: The show is produced by Suzie Lechtenberg and Chelsea Daniel. It's produced by Jake Loomis and Gabe Quiroga, and mixed by Mike Kutchman. Chioma Nnadi: See you next week. Chloe Malle: Bye.